StarCraft World
SCW COMMUNITY => Introduce Yourself => Topic started by: HyDrA on April 12, 2020, 01:14:42 am
-
So... I was the most watched player back in vgt/scd days. I ran penguin plug and all the other stuff needed to prove that I wasn't hacking.
People were thoroughly studying my replays in BWChart to see my clicks to try and prove that I was hacking. Everyone else was getting caught hacking this way... But me? NOPE. I wonder why..... *Take a second to think about this one... Really, do it.
Only reason why I got tagged in SCD was because 'Nova' wanted to see how i'd do with hacks on, and had me smurf as 'PvP'.. while he posted the replays for me. I went 15-0 on that while hacking before I got caught hacking and banned.
jon-sayz ratted me out when I told him that I was in fact, 'PvP' ..fucking asshole was supposed to be my friend. So because of that, I got tagged on my 'HyDrA' name. EVEN THOUGH I never hacked on my 'HyDrA' name.
I won 2 All-Star tournaments without hacking.
I won VGT seasons 9-17 without hacking. I remember VGT15 was my best one. SC 50-4; BW 50-2
I was up on everyone that I played during my prime time.
I won some other leagues such like HGL, and SCW3? Can't remember others.
Then I quit for a couple years and would come on every once in a while to mess around. That's when I didn't care anymore and started to hack for the fuck of it.
My mouse speed/accuracy is no where what it used to be back in the day. I like to use this game to calculate that.
http://www.arcadecabin.com/play/disc_dash.html
Try it out for yourself. It's fun.
I used to be able to get over 1,000,000. NOW I can barely reach 70k-100k.
So all this talk about how I lose all credibility because I apparently hacked ALL MY LIFE? nahhh... Ya'll are dumb ;) Just bitter because I was better when I really played this game religiously.
I had my prime time when I thoroughly cared about this game. I would have never hacked during that time to risk getting caught when everyone was on my ass watching me. I cared too much about the game during that time.
...Cheers ;)
-
Tom, its Dano. Dont think about what losers have to say..... ppl that know you, know the truth, period.
-
Tom, its Dano. Dont think about what losers have to say..... ppl that know you, know the truth, period.
dano how come u dont suck on my dick like that??????????? im ur daddy
-
Medic, you are a fucking Noob -_- shut up, The only ppl i actually look up to skillswise are: Tom, Jon, Ryoji, Dung, Quang, Cheese, Defjam, Tyga. And no Kon, you didnt impress me at all at ppvpp -_- So dont even Think about it.
-
the past is gone. The future is now old man. can you beat the big bois of 2020?
-
So... I was the most watched player back in vgt/scd days. I ran penguin plug and all the other stuff needed to prove that I wasn't hacking.
People were thoroughly studying my replays in BWChart to see my clicks to try and prove that I was hacking. Everyone else was getting caught hacking this way... But me? NOPE. I wonder why..... *Take a second to think about this one... Really, do it.
Only reason why I got tagged in SCD was because 'Nova' wanted to see how i'd do with hacks on, and had me smurf as 'PvP'.. while he posted the replays for me. I went 15-0 on that while hacking before I got caught hacking and banned.
jon-sayz ratted me out when I told him that I was in fact, 'PvP' ..fucking asshole was supposed to be my friend. So because of that, I got tagged on my 'HyDrA' name. EVEN THOUGH I never hacked on my 'HyDrA' name.
I won 2 All-Star tournaments without hacking.
I won VGT seasons 9-17 without hacking. I remember VGT15 was my best one. SC 50-4; BW 50-2
I was up on everyone that I played during my prime time.
I won some other leagues such like HGL, and SCW3? Can't remember others.
Then I quit for a couple years and would come on every once in a while to mess around. That's when I didn't care anymore and started to hack for the fuck of it.
My mouse speed/accuracy is no where what it used to be back in the day. I like to use this game to calculate that.
http://www.arcadecabin.com/play/disc_dash.html
Try it out for yourself. It's fun.
I used to be able to get over 1,000,000. NOW I can barely reach 70k-100k.
So all this talk about how I lose all credibility because I apparently hacked ALL MY LIFE? nahhh... Ya'll are dumb ;) Just bitter because I was better when I really played this game religiously.
I had my prime time when I thoroughly cared about this game. I would have never hacked during that time to risk getting caught when everyone was on my ass watching me. I cared too much about the game during that time.
...Cheers ;)
why don't you just stream and prove it? ^-^
-
You hacked during a cash season in ugl when you told people you were back to prove you were still the best
There’s a reason you suck so bad post remastered
Caught in Vgt caught in scd caught in ugl. Don’t doubt you hacked your whole life
-
You also denied hacking but then would continue to get caught. So anything you say is not really credible
-
HydrA doesn't suck. You have to acknowledge he's still pretty good. Top Level? He'll have to prove it he's still got it. The Past is gone. The future is now.
-
Tom, its Dano. Dont think about what losers have to say..... ppl that know you, know the truth, period.
<3
why don't you just stream and prove it? ^-^
Right, so I'll go back in time and stream it for ya.
You hacked during a cash season in ugl when you told people you were back to prove you were still the best
There’s a reason you suck so bad post remastered
Caught in Vgt caught in scd caught in ugl. Don’t doubt you hacked your whole life
When was I caught in VGT? I was briefly tagged in VGT, BECAUSE they tagged me on SCD. But then that tag got removed.
And did you know people lose a certain skill when they don't touch that particular something for a long period of time? Not sure if that's common sense for some or not. Surprisingly there's a lot of stupid people in this world.
HydrA doesn't suck. You have to acknowledge he's still pretty good. Top Level? He'll have to prove it he's still got it. The Past is gone. The future is now.
I don't care about the game like I used to. I don't play ANYWHERE as close as I used to play. Everyone is talking about the past. So I was talking about the past.
You also denied hacking but then would continue to get caught. So anything you say is not really credible
Yes I'd always deny about hacking during my prime time. Because I never did. Read my post again, and you'll see that I admittedly said that I hacked when I didn't care anymore and came back to this game years later.
I'm sure MANY MANY others have hacked on this game just to try it out, mess around and have fun with it. But they probably did it on other accounts perhaps? Ya never going to know. Those who read this will just agree in their head and not say anything.
On top of that, some of those same people are the type of people will that will BASH on people that hack. It's too funny.
It's like many homophobics that are actually homosexual.
-
Once you get caught cheating once, your entire history is in jeopardy. It is your word against the evidence of having cheated once. Your word doesn't hold much credit, given you've cheated once. While there is nothing proving you've done it more than once, there's also nothing disproving you haven't done it more than once. Up until evidence is provided to prove your point, you will carry that mark and be doubted.
If you are truthful, why did you decide to throw away your "legacy" by cheating?
Now if it happened twice, and you've after the first time claimed you weren't doing it anymore but then gotten caught again, well you've ruined it forever.
-
Give him a break. Regardless of him cheating once in the past, he is still better than the majority of the fastest map community. There are several gamers that still play that have hacked or cheated. What makes his case so different? He obviously doesn't hack anymore. Dodging him based off of the excuse that he hacks seems invalid.
-
why say once? hes been tagged in all 3 leagues. all 3 different times. vgt/scd/ugl
-
its ok man basically all fastest ppl hack, truly nothing to be ashamed of in scw
-
never said he hacks now. but all his known accomplishments pre remastered are tainted
-
Medic, you are a fucking Noob -_- shut up, The only ppl i actually look up to skillswise are: Tom, Jon, Ryoji, Dung, Quang, Cheese, Defjam, Tyga. And no Kon, you didnt impress me at all at ppvpp -_- So dont even Think about it.
well idk how tyga made that list ...
-
Medic, you are a fucking Noob -_- shut up, The only ppl i actually look up to skillswise are: Tom, Jon, Ryoji, Dung, Quang, Cheese, Defjam, Tyga. And no Kon, you didnt impress me at all at ppvpp -_- So dont even Think about it.
well idk how tyga made that list ...
Tyga in UGL and early SCW was legit second best excluding Koreans.
-
why say once? hes been tagged in all 3 leagues. all 3 different times. vgt/scd/ugl
Read my post again. Maybe a little bit slower so you can comprehend it a bit better.
-
You hacked during a cash season in ugl when you told people you were back to prove you were still the best
There’s a reason you suck so bad post remastered
Caught in Vgt caught in scd caught in ugl. Don’t doubt you hacked your whole life
Tom was caught in SCD as a hacker, he was not caught in VGT. As an admin in SCD at that time, I worked with Kris to get him tagged on VGT based on the hacking in SCD which Kris did. Welcome back Tom, good luck trying to change your legacy of being a confirmed hack on another FPM league/forum.
Also, you were caught hacking with auto-mine, lmao. What the fuck are you on?
-
Medic, you are a fucking Noob -_- shut up, The only ppl i actually look up to skillswise are: Tom, Jon, Ryoji, Dung, Quang, Cheese, Defjam, Tyga. And no Kon, you didnt impress me at all at ppvpp -_- So dont even Think about it.
well idk how tyga made that list ...
Alex probably become the best P in 2s and was owning in 1s behind Cole. Use to watch him shit on rabbit pvsp nonstop
-
You hacked during a cash season in ugl when you told people you were back to prove you were still the best
There’s a reason you suck so bad post remastered
Caught in Vgt caught in scd caught in ugl. Don’t doubt you hacked your whole life
Tom was caught in SCD as a hacker, he was not caught in VGT. As an admin in SCD at that time, I worked with Kris to get him tagged on VGT based on the hacking in SCD which Kris did. Welcome back Tom, good luck trying to change your legacy of being a confirmed hack on another FPM league/forum.
Also, you were caught hacking with auto-mine, lmao. What the fuck are you on?
Learn to read. Only reason why I was tagged in SCD was because I hacked on 'PvP' ... Jesus, no one knows how to comprehend anything.
-
HyDrA Is GoSu BuT RuStY
-
Medic, you are a fucking Noob -_- shut up, The only ppl i actually look up to skillswise are: Tom, Jon, Ryoji, Dung, Quang, Cheese, Defjam, Tyga. And no Kon, you didnt impress me at all at ppvpp -_- So dont even Think about it.
well idk how tyga made that list ...
Alex probably become the best P in 2s and was owning in 1s behind Cole. Use to watch him shit on rabbit pvsp nonstop
shit on rabbit pvp? All his UGL records show no PvP losses. Was this non matches? Only records of Rabbit losing PvP is against Shitlord Matt in SCW.
https://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&season=27&mode=profile&id=5
https://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&season=27&mode=profile&id=90
https://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&season=27&mode=profile&id=7
https://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&season=26&mode=profile&id=160
https://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&season=22&mode=profile&id=90
https://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&season=18&mode=profile&id=22
https://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&season=33&mode=profile&id=49
-
premier stop sucking Korean dick
-
pro]marine hacked
hydra[vck] hacked
xs.sin hacked
all during there respected primes
-
is teresmajor premier?
-
premier stop sucking Korean dick
never.
\
-
is teresmajor premier?
no one ever hides there ip
-
premier stop sucking Korean dick
never.
\
you dont have to ride them so hard though. they don't give a shit about you bro.
-
Marine didnt hack....
-
Marine didnt hack....
big time
-
Marine didnt hack....
marine 100% hacked and i am almost positive he quit once we got caught. hop off his dick you little euro bitch.
-
I did read, you're telling it wrong. You're trying to preserve your image? Again, you were caught in SCD using auto-mine. I got to put the pretty hacker tag on your SCD account
-
you got the reps already scan them after hacks, you wont find anything at all. Marine didnt hack, Cole. You are mad cuz he ran over your idols.... its okey. Medic, show the proof that he hacked. You dont got any at all.... I belive Kris tried so hard to get him he didnt get nothing at all.
-
whos my idols?
-
I'm actually surprised people believe this guy lol.
You were caught multiple times from what I remember. At least twice guaranteed. This is an extreme case but how crazy would it be if someone who murdered 2 people on different occasions said what you said. "i killed 2 guys but i promise I would never kill a 3rd"
This happens all the time, people who commit crimes go into this deep denial trip, repeat it to themselves enough that they start to believe it. It's not even that they are lying at this point, it's that they have justified it so much they even start to believe it themselves.
If you got caught once and then showed some actual acts to repent THEN I would be more flexible to the idea that you have changed. The problem is you got caught again and if dryfly's memory serves him well, again.... Fakkkk me lol. Sorry but I can't pretend to believe you or gullibly sit here and accept your story.
Also, how are we going to accuse other people of being hackers(hope you all are trolling) if they never officially got tagged/caught. That shit is wack lol. Why don't we just accuse everyone at the top of the list of hacking too, fak it. Shit let me start it off, brain clearly hacked and so did rabbit.
-
conclusion: Either prove your worth here in the present and the future or shut up about the past.
-
I never had enough experience playing directly with you, Tom to have an opinion...although I have had a lot of accusations come my way not only in starcraft but in my competition COD world. So, I get it. There's always a bunch of nubs who can't fathom being beat legitimately so the only thing they can think of is that you've cheated.
-
I never had enough experience playing directly with you, Tom to have an opinion...although I have had a lot of accusations come my way not only in starcraft but in my competition COD world. So, I get it. There's always a bunch of nubs who can't fathom being beat legitimately so the only thing they can think of is that you've cheated.
live.sword made an anti hack in ugl and it caught hydra using maphack.
-
you got the reps already scan them after hacks, you wont find anything at all. Marine didnt hack, Cole. You are mad cuz he ran over your idols.... its okey. Medic, show the proof that he hacked. You dont got any at all.... I belive Kris tried so hard to get him he didnt get nothing at all.
bro that lil vietcong ass mother fucker was hacking. you can go ahead and hop off his dick now.
-
I never had enough experience playing directly with you, Tom to have an opinion...although I have had a lot of accusations come my way not only in starcraft but in my competition COD world. So, I get it. There's always a bunch of nubs who can't fathom being beat legitimately so the only thing they can think of is that you've cheated.
live.sword made an anti hack in ugl and it caught hydra using maphack.
he got caught pre anti hack. i caught him using auto scarab in a league game vs invaderzim. sword banned him shortly after reviewing the same thing in most of his other games that season
-
so basically you are a common maphack user
-
Welcome back Hydra, you were fun to watch/play with back in the day. I find the game so much more enjoyable when just playing it casually. I used to rank top 10 VGT/SCD but that was too stressful. I am not necessarily worse now (just came back less than a month ago), but people are honestly a lot more better than 13 years ago, so I am not even gonna attempt to rank anymore =)
Anyone remember battle cheese btw?
-
Welcome back Hydra, you were fun to watch/play with back in the day. I find the game so much more enjoyable when just playing it casually. I used to rank top 10 VGT/SCD but that was too stressful. I am not necessarily worse now (just came back less than a month ago), but people are honestly a lot more better than 13 years ago, so I am not even gonna attempt to rank anymore =)
Anyone remember battle cheese btw?
Sure do! I just stared playing again too (Not fastest competitively though). I was La.Pr0sPeCt / xS / SiFu]Newb. Not sure if you remember me.
And hey Tom. Welcome back.
-
Sup matt. 😊😊😊😉😉sup tommm🙃🙃🙃🙃
-
Sup matt. 😊😊😊😉😉sup tommm🙃🙃🙃🙃
OMG Whats up buddy!?!? You still playing?
-
Nope i dont play anymore busy life
-
TOM I REMEMBER YOU.. back from scd you were a monster!!!! and Hydra[VCk] was a name to fear!!! back then hope you doing well brother god bless
-
Nope i dont play anymore busy life
whats up vova
-
No idea who you are
-
Hacks or not Tom had some of the best Macro/Micro in FPM history.
-
hacker labels currently were based on silly things and claims of the cocky on the server with the administrator, also with donors where their word was law. I have no doubt because even I was tagged at some point, without basis and foundation I was not even a good player, I had only created new plays and took advantage of a bug, about colors and races.
-
I am an old player and i discovered HyDrA in VGT back in the early days. I don't think he was hacking in his prime. Why ? Because i was someone that watched EVERYONE of his vgt games to teach the game and improve. It's been a lifetime... Maybe 10-15 years ago lol.
I remember HasH, Marine, HyDrA, those guys were almost unbeatable at their prime. I don't see anyone today that could beat them back in the days.
Im sad thing did not change after all of these years... Why are u guys agressiv ? We are a small community now, just enjoy this game and be nice together. Flame won't change anything at all...
-
Hunter raped Hash every time. Haha....
-
I am an old player and i discovered HyDrA in VGT back in the early days. I don't think he was hacking in his prime. Why ? Because i was someone that watched EVERYONE of his vgt games to teach the game and improve. It's been a lifetime... Maybe 10-15 years ago lol.
I remember HasH, Marine, HyDrA, those guys were almost unbeatable at their prime. I don't see anyone today that could beat them back in the days.
Im sad thing did not change after all of these years... Why are u guys agressiv ? We are a small community now, just enjoy this game and be nice together. Flame won't change anything at all...
First. Hydra was caught hacks using a hackdetector program. He even confessed to it.
You've obviously not seen the top players of the SCW or UGL eras if you came to the conclusion people now can't beat people of the past.
Tyga, Kokanee, Dinko, EviL, Omni, Defjam and Monte are or were respectively better than any VGT era player, if not at least on the same level. And that is excluding the korean players that've been winning most seasons they participated in.
Some ridicilously good koreans have played in SCW and UGL. Let me give you some examples.
Infinite Shin, one of the biggest broodwar streamers and a fastest map player (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-okJdotaXPlzivRzHFqzuA)
Braingod AKA Sea.KH, a PRO CARD and top 12 Afreeca Starleague finisher (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqlcSsDNMYxEsem7bWY-66Q)
LuckYBack who played for one season and didn't play much either, but would without a doubt have won had he bothered to play more matches (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCAfh6bB04qool_877V5HDg)
Rabbit/Toki who played in about 5 UGL seasons and 2 SCW seasons. He dominated in UGL and only had two competitors able to almost match him. (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFJcNk4d6M_dVx2nh9jsp1A/featured)
J.H/Voss who has won ALMOST every single season he played in and only had THREE people able to match him over all the seasons he played. Goldscv/1vs1gooooo/WhiteandBlack, Kokanee/Maximum/Fourdrones and Scan. (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtnUb02t0b7n4FqyGopfnkA/videos)
Goldscv/1vs1gooooo/WhiteandBlack who I lack a channel link for but has in some seasons destroyed EVERYONE excluding the other koreans and Kokanee.
And then there's koreans who haven't played SCW or UGL and are even better than some of the names above, like ttukkarandom/hamburgersasu, Inbusjaja/GangNamLife, Korean Pro Mong who plays fastest 90% of the time these days, 458!!! a monster of a player and Minchul/Gensei who is undoubtedly the second best fastest player.
If you had to rank the best fastest players, on both the korean map and the western map, it'd look something like this:
1. Brain
2. Minchul
3. Shin
4. Mong
5. LuckYBack + ttukkarandom + Flash(He played a lot of fastest in 2018) + Light(still plays fastest)
6. KIMKISSAN + Rabbit(no risking)
7. Goldscv + 458!!!
8. GangNamLife
9. J.H + Question + Scan + Rabbit(risking)
10. Ryanteacher
11. Kokanee
12. Tooo many people to list who are too close to each other in terms of skill.
Brain vs GoldSCV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWKcxD7PYHE&ab_channel=%EB%B8%8C%EB%A0%88%EC%9D%B8%EC%8B%A0)
Brain in ASL9 vs Light and Mind (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF6GczAXpJI&ab_channel=AfreecaTVeSports)
Brain vs Soulkey and Action (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVJ5pLq1iBo&ab_channel=AfreecaTVeSports)
-
I am an old player and i discovered HyDrA in VGT back in the early days. I don't think he was hacking in his prime. Why ? Because i was someone that watched EVERYONE of his vgt games to teach the game and improve. It's been a lifetime... Maybe 10-15 years ago lol.
I remember HasH, Marine, HyDrA, those guys were almost unbeatable at their prime. I don't see anyone today that could beat them back in the days.
Im sad thing did not change after all of these years... Why are u guys agressiv ? We are a small community now, just enjoy this game and be nice together. Flame won't change anything at all...
First. Hydra was caught hacks using a hackdetector program. He even confessed to it.
You've obviously not seen the top players of the SCW or UGL eras if you came to the conclusion people now can't beat people of the past.
Tyga, Kokanee, Dinko, EviL, Omni, Defjam and Monte are or were respectively better than any VGT era player, if not at least on the same level. And that is excluding the korean players that've been winning most seasons they participated in.
Some ridicilously good koreans have played in SCW and UGL. Let me give you some examples.
Infinite Shin, one of the biggest broodwar streamers and a fastest map player (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-okJdotaXPlzivRzHFqzuA)
Braingod AKA Sea.KH, a PRO CARD and top 12 Afreeca Starleague finisher (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqlcSsDNMYxEsem7bWY-66Q)
LuckYBack who played for one season and didn't play much either, but would without a doubt have won had he bothered to play more matches (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCAfh6bB04qool_877V5HDg)
Rabbit/Toki who played in about 5 UGL seasons and 2 SCW seasons. He dominated in UGL and only had two competitors able to almost match him. (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFJcNk4d6M_dVx2nh9jsp1A/featured)
J.H/Voss who has won ALMOST every single season he played in and only had THREE people able to match him over all the seasons he played. Goldscv/1vs1gooooo/WhiteandBlack, Kokanee/Maximum/Fourdrones and Scan. (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtnUb02t0b7n4FqyGopfnkA/videos)
Goldscv/1vs1gooooo/WhiteandBlack who I lack a channel link for but has in some seasons destroyed EVERYONE excluding the other koreans and Kokanee.
And then there's koreans who haven't played SCW or UGL and are even better than some of the names above, like ttukkarandom/hamburgersasu, Inbusjaja/GangNamLife, Korean Pro Mong who plays fastest 90% of the time these days, 458!!! a monster of a player and Minchul/Gensei who is undoubtedly the second best fastest player.
If you had to rank the best fastest players, on both the korean map and the western map, it'd look something like this:
1. Brain
2. Minchul
3. Shin
4. Mong
5. LuckYBack + ttukkarandom + Flash(He played a lot of fastest in 2018) + Light(still plays fastest)
6. KIMKISSAN + Rabbit(no risking)
7. Goldscv + 458!!!
8. GangNamLife
9. J.H + Question + Scan + Rabbit(risking)
10. Ryanteacher
11. Kokanee
12. Tooo many people to list who are too close to each other in terms of skill.
Brain vs GoldSCV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWKcxD7PYHE&ab_channel=%EB%B8%8C%EB%A0%88%EC%9D%B8%EC%8B%A0)
Brain in ASL9 vs Light and Mind (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF6GczAXpJI&ab_channel=AfreecaTVeSports)
Brain vs Soulkey and Action (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVJ5pLq1iBo&ab_channel=AfreecaTVeSports)
I also agree these koreans are truly on another level. I don't think they even play much FMP at all and are just mainly low money or that other weird Fastest map. Imagine if these Korean's actually cared to play FMP and figured out the build/timing/map inside and out. No one would be able to touch them.
-
Tom was caught in SCD using auto-mine while I was admin on SCD. He was banned for it. His explanation was that he used the hack program to change the music on his program while he is playing, but swears he didn't use any of the hack features and forgot to turn off auto-mine on that 1 occasion. I then lobbied Kris to label him a hacker on VGT, which he ultimately did. Fun times.
-
I was caught on a different account during SCD. I explained this already. Was never on my HyDrA name.
-
Tom please, you're not helping yourself here ;D ;D
-
Gus, haha...
-
Hey, at least Tom is actually someone you would want to kick it with.
Most top gamers here are square nerds with an ego that's too massive to comprehend.
Keep doin your shit tom!
-
I'm just fuckin with him everyone knows he hacked way back when
-
Hydra vs Cole tonight for the tournament. For whatever reason, you guys have been pushing it off. Would be a shame if someone is dodging.
-
Hydra vs Cole tonight for the tournament. For whatever reason, you guys have been pushing it off. Would be a shame if someone is dodging.
Slash just posted on his Facebook page that it's set up for tomorrow
-
That means its been postponed 3-4x. Believe it when i see it