StarCraft World
GENERAL => General Discussion => Topic started by: DryFly on September 23, 2017, 01:29:23 pm
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will season 2 be original starcraft? or does everyone love how much more unbalanced fastest map is with bw units
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My vote would be Original. BW isn't meant to be played on this map, it's not balanced at all.
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Could you please explain why do you think its unbalanced ?
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Finally two guys that actually know what they're talking about. SC for season 2!
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My vote would be Original. BW isn't meant to be played on this map, it's not balanced at all.
Fastest was never meant to exist to begin with, in orig or bw.
Original is certainly not balanced. Protoss has the advantage for the most part.
The hardest matches were tvz and zvp and those get a bit balanced with lurkers introduced to bw. TvP was another m/u that was difficult for the fastest community and that is balanced with medics.
Protoss can no longer brute force through wins with zealz + canons.
I think this is as close to balanced as it gets for fastest.
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I think we should go back to original. because late game for terran in tvz is almost unwinnable. also mind control as protoss gives protoss a 400 psi cap which is unbeatable. I think it's was better on original and should be kept that way.
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Midspot ZvT is impossible to win as well. Goliaths with upgrades are way too strong so early in the game that the zerg can't even get to a mid game point. Guardians don't do a thing vs goliaths and you can't get a big enough ground mass that early in the game to deal with the tanks. Mid Zergs are almost impossible to win at in bw against terran and protoss.
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My noob vote will be SC too if anyone cares here.
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The point is that they should play differently, why always go to guardians, if they also have the lurkers or perform other mass strategies of zerglings or go to mass of mutalisk or guardians is to try to confuse the opponent.
Kh loop is the most rusher player in the league may have something good, but the troll always wants to play same, at least his zerg varies more.
In late game knowing that the prottos have mind control try not to leave scvs or drones outside or have scourges near the vespene base where the drones pick up the gas.
The t vs z in late game is the most difficult game, before try to annoy it as soon as possible so that the zerg does not get to play comfortably in late game, try to get the vessel as fast as possible and nukes if they delay a lot then is when the zerg play quiet
BW there are more strategies than SC and therefore try to play more different. And also is to know the timing, speed and effective strategies
I know they already know the majority.
My vote is ..
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I posted the winrates on BW - I don't see how original starcraft makes this any better
Arguably TvP is SLIGHTLY easier - until the protoss makes carriers and your goliaths are useless (not that they were great before).
TvZ is already T favored in BW, worse in SC
Same with PvZ
If anything the lurker swarm makes the game MORE balanced - even though it can be annoying.
Corsairs make it easier to drop, and DTs make it easier to tech to storm drop ASAP without dying to a zerg/terran timing.
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No offense but i think only the top players can tell wether broodwar or orig is more balanced on fastest. And without talking to any i know for sure that every single top player knows that orig is more balanced. The map is also perfect like it is, so stop making suggestions about changing the map. Super map is a complete different map with different tactics, it has nothing to do with more balance.
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there won't be a season 2. If there is its because i'm busy but i promiss you that there won't be a season 3. Think what u all want but youll see. u won't have to worry about this stuff.
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Ofc fastest map is not 100% balanced for all races and spots, but original starcraft is as close as it gets.
Some of the Broodwar units are to overpowered and not meant to be made on an unlimited money/gas map. Its clear protoss is the easiest and strongest race to play, but now lets give them a unit that can potential have 400 psi in an 1v1 game. Protoss is the easiest race to turtle with and you cant say hide your scv or drones. Try winning a cross map TvP/ZvP long game without having to build mid structures leaving scv/drones scattered around. Not to mention how easy it is to recall in and out a unit. This alone does not make any sense on an unlimited money map. Guardians and Mutas are way too expensive for a zerg to be easily killed by a cheap costing unit such as a goliath. and im sure everyone knows how annoying and unfair it is for terran to attack lurker swarm.
Fastest Map - I have no problem with the map we have always played on, people have adjusted to it, even if you are a mid spot it may be harder to win but definitely not impossible. Iv never had a problem winning as a mid spot if i have played a flawless game and chose the correct build order to benefit that spot. Its not like your gonna throw down a tripple CC Mid TvsP and play into longer game and be harassed by drops and carriers..No, your gonna learn how to adapt into a good early - mid game macro push.
Broodwar seemed to be a good idea for remastered, bring in new gamers to the league and bring the koreans over.. well the koreans arent playing. and new players are playing pub games, the guys that come to league are the players who have played in previous leagues which were all OG and prefer OG.
The top 10 most active players who keep the league alive season after season all prefer original sc.. so why not make them happy. Seems like a no brainer to me.
If you skimmed it, I vote Original SC.
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Lurkers in TvZ are vicious combo to have. They are basically moving sunkens that could potentially help slow down tank pushes in preparation for guardians. Swarm plays a major role in bw because of lurkers. Would imagine lurker + guardian combo would help prolong the game to a mid game enough to transition into a defiler//ling//lurker build. Ive tested it in a few 1s and granted it wasn't vs amazing players and also im not exactly at the top of my game atm but it seemed to work decently and it didn't feel so 1 sided like TvZ's usually feel. I love that terran is now forced to rush vessel//scans to keep a consistent push.
PvT is such a pain in the ass on orig. Terran basically has to perfectly micro his units to outplay a basic zealot + canon push. Medics really is game changing vs early game protoss. God damn i love medics. You dont even need that many, early game 3-5 medics is ridiculously strong and it helps a ton to slow down zealot + canon pushes so that you have opportunity to transition into tech. Goliath are wonderful and actually useful vs carriers. Only thing that still sucks about this one is P now has corsairs lol which have such a short production and is insanely viable for drops and is pretty cheap to make. I think it's only fair since terran gets quite an improvement from orig to bw with medics introduced to the game.
ZvP lurkers, lurkers, lurkers. They are a wonderful thing, use them, then use them some more.
I don't really care what version of sc you all play on TBH since im not playing this season. Will play next one for sure, been trying to dust off this wall of rust with pubs. Trying to get the mechanics part of the game back, feels a lot slower than i remember. But I think you guys are overlooking how fun BW is and the variety it brings in comparison to orig. Can't imagine myself going back to orig. Lurkers are wayyyy to fun. Medics are FANTASTIC! lol. Stim/movement speed for days.
We've just about seen it all on Orig. Every move, every strat, every build. BW brings a bunch of new tools to the table that can really make observing games much more entertaining if the person feels cocky enough to use them. The good thing about fastest is we have the luxury to use these units freely where as low money players are limited to a set of strats because some units are to expensive and unrealistic to play with on such limited resources.
Dang.. i miss talking about sc :D I'm hella nerd.
Anyways, to each their own. Again, I'm not playing this season so it doesn't matter what i say but the points i make are interesting and well... it's starcraft forum. ;D
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How many games actually come down to MC though? PvT is usually ezwin in the late game so just vs corner-zerg if it goes super late?
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Brood war is absolutely a more balanced version of the game. Most of the units that were introduced were specifically designed counter some of the imbalances in SC. Fastest as a map itself is unbalanced but we all know this and have dealt with it all along.
The reoccurring complaint everyone brings up in BW is lurk swarm usually , which is definitely a difficult thing to fight in a choke , however every race has all the tools they need to deal with it. It just takes more effort and some tweaks to composition.
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how do i play a league game? Is there is a channel where these games take place?
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how do i play a league game? Is there is a channel where these games take place?
People usually are looking for games in the channel "op ugl" on USWest.
Sign up for the league in the League -> Join League tab.
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my vote is for orig too
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original pleaseeee
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Why not both?
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Im agree with puppy just i think both winner at bw and sc league have to play a final bo5 with a mix bw sc looser choose its an idea he can work for 2v2 too for only one cash prize at end.
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Agreed with Puma. BW is definitely more balanced than original I can't believe this is even a discussion lol. The only thing that makes BW imbalanced is Protoss mind control, we can set a rule though that Protoss can't use it or they'll forfeit the game or something.
+1
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Why not both?
Because usually when there's a bw and original league, bw always turns out to be dead.
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Im agree with puppy just i think both winner at bw and sc league have to play a final bo5 with a mix bw sc looser choose its an idea he can work for 2v2 too for only one cash prize at end.
Also not being a dick, but somebody with only 3 games doesn't contribute to activity should have no say. Lol
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I dont play this game anymore but i vote for original.
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And thats why ur vote doesnt count at all.
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I would like to see Rabbits opinion on the subject, he has played both leagues actively.
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If u ask any koreans...theyll prefer bw on super map...i think... :o
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super map isnt fastest map
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I have thought about this a bit, I will have to say that I support a BW league.
There are a large number of 3v3ers in this community and they will not be able to find a game if they are on original. With Brood War USA1-5 regularly at 30-40 people, I cannot support something that would make the game more inactive than it already is.
Perhaps a SC 1v1 tourney for top 8 of a season, KOTH style. 2 accounts in top 8 = bye rnd 1.
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Then Xtre should go play 3s on bw.... Play 2s and 1s on orig..
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yeah I was just gonna say how is 3s pubs helping scw activity?
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Poppy you're making no sense, if people want to play 3v3 BW they can do it, if the league it's SC is not gonna affect anyone cuz people can switch anytime on BW to play 3s so stop talking bullshit Thx.. like i said and manny other players said BW is never gonna be balanced and i think that if the next seasson gonna be SC more players are coming back, and i'm sure about it cuz i know a fewgood old players that don't like BW and never gonna do it .
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Ok, so here's a question. What is the reason you don't like BW? People say it is unbalanced, but that is not true. Statistically speaking BW is MORE balanced. It gives zerg a better chance to win. Previous season win rates on Orig look like this : PvZ = 70% : 30% ... TvZ = 60% : 40% ... on BW the win rates are much more balanced. PvZ is now almost 60% : 40% and TvZ is 55% : 45% . Everyone is whining about lurker swarm being unbalanced.... even though Terran still has an advantage.
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yeah I was just gonna say how is 3s pubs helping scw activity?
I'm saying without 3s people, and it's not just xtre-, you will be left with 10 people circle jerking. There will also be less outlets for people coming back to the game to find out about the community.
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the reason I don't like bw is because lurk swarm is so hard to kill, you can easily have the upper hand as terran and the zerg just camps massing lurk swarm for hours while u try everything to kill him even taking main. nuking 20 times etc and it is almost impossible to win as terran, leading to a long drawn out game that is extremely easy for the zerg in long game.
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I think the only reason zerg is 45% is because most zergs are not fast enough to get on lurk swarm tech but all of the top players can and will camp you to death doing this, so I think it's more about the high level players abusing than the average because most of the average players will still die to push etc before getting the tech required to use the tactic
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Ok, let me do a quick analysis of percentages just based on the top 10 players at the moment
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Here are the race statistics and win ratios of the top 10 players this season :
PvT : 175 - 54 (76%)
TvP : 103 - 135 (43%)
TvZ : 151 - 66 (70%)
ZvT : 93 - 111 (45%)
PvZ : 187 - 41 (82%)
ZvP : 101 - 158 (39%)
It appears that lurker swarm isn't that imba after all.
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when zerg is played a certain way. zerg is totally broken on fastest. I'm 100% sure of that.
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you must take into account the amount of muta masses and ling rushes involved in a lot of zvt's not everyone uses lurk swarm every game.
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If you're talking specific abusive situations lurker swarm doesn't hold a candle to mind control toss. Zerg is the worst race on fastest in 1v1 and 2v2 SC and BW period. Its slightly better in BW but still the worst race by far. BW is more balanced in every match up.
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playing vs mass lurker and mass swarm makes me wanna quit sc really. most boring and stupidest shit ever. I don't care what anyone says lol. I hate bw zvt with a PASSION.
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I just feel like the only ones who want it to stay BW are the people who barely even league.
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when zerg is played a certain way. zerg is totally broken on fastest. I'm 100% sure of that.
Just because people are too lazy to make additional science vessels or nukes doesn't make it "broken". Its tough to fight and it takes more effort than fighting other shit, but it's absolutely doable. Zerg is hot garbage early/mid game and they easily have the cards stacked against them until Hive tech. I think lurk swarm is totally fair. I'd be more mad at the map itself for encouraging turtling and camping. It's just the nature of the broken ass map we all play.
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next season original
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when zerg is played a certain way. zerg is totally broken on fastest. I'm 100% sure of that.
Just because people are too lazy to make additional science vessels or nukes doesn't make it "broken". Its tough to fight and it takes more effort than fighting other shit, but it's absolutely doable. Zerg is hot garbage early/mid game and they easily have the cards stacked against them until Hive tech. I think lurk swarm is totally fair. I'd be more mad at the map itself for encouraging turtling and camping. It's just the nature of the broken ass map we all play.
another guy with 5 games who wants to keep it as bw. ive played games where I made about 100 nukes and 50 vessels and still couldn't break lurk swarm.
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when zerg is played a certain way. zerg is totally broken on fastest. I'm 100% sure of that.
Just because people are too lazy to make additional science vessels or nukes doesn't make it "broken". Its tough to fight and it takes more effort than fighting other shit, but it's absolutely doable. Zerg is hot garbage early/mid game and they easily have the cards stacked against them until Hive tech. I think lurk swarm is totally fair. I'd be more mad at the map itself for encouraging turtling and camping. It's just the nature of the broken ass map we all play.
another guy with 5 games who wants to keep it as bw. ive played games where I made about 100 nukes and 50 vessels and still couldn't break lurk swarm.
I like how you use current scw season games as a metric to quantify experience level on people who have been playing the game for over 15 years. But ok, whatever you say.
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Why dont we let the pro-gamers decide. And by pro-gamer i dont mean Momo85.
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jaja is funny it how it complains Gus, having a good balance t vs z after 20 min, 7-6 in favor terran vs zerg after of 20 min
In general the top 10 including rabbit excluding network who played a lot against people of low rank, stayed like this
zvst 28-18 after 20 minutes
63% victories for zerg
41% victories for terran after 20 minutes
poor zerg finally won in something
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IMO :
sc is better for 1vs1 and bw is better for 2vs2.
zerg have more option on 2vs2 with lurkers
for 1vs1, i prefer sc, P is less favorite. on BW, P always win or almost.
for the TvZ or ZvT on bw.... man its 100% fine its the same win ratio on sc
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The players keeping the league alive season after season are the ones who want sc
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Stacraaft was great on SC and it always gonna be on SC never on BW even the greatest player xS.SiN switched from BW on SC after 4 -5 seassons soo that shoud tell you something.
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We idolising hackers now? Pretty ez to be that good when u can see ur opponents builds xD
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I like BW more.
the biggest discussion of the BW league is the ZvT
so much it costs to change the strategy, so accustomed we are to play always of the same form?
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We idolising hackers now? Pretty ez to be that good when u can see ur opponents builds xD
When was he caught ?
Why dont we let the pro-gamers decide. And by pro-gamer i dont mean Momo85.
Momo makes league active so why cant he have a say ?
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http://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&mode=gamedetails&l=1&gid=2058
http://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&mode=gamedetails&l=1&gid=2099
http://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&mode=gamedetails&l=1&gid=2106
http://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&mode=gamedetails&l=1&gid=2229
http://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&mode=gamedetails&l=1&gid=2412
High level ZvT games on BW. Tell me what's wrong with the match up?
Looks the same as Original, except Zerg now has something to truly stop that god awful OP 2 factory mb push with lurkers :D
I don't see enough science vessels outta the Terrans. In the last game when the choke is bunker-ed you can see there is no time for guards, so lurkers allow zerg hope after ling harass, even if the game is a L.
For the Swarm!!!
What other race has more games < 5 minutes than zerg? Lurkers give zergs hope.
For PvZ
http://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?action=league&mode=gamedetails&l=1&gid=1551
This is the replay mentioned earlier. Turtle, main snipe, mind control. 1hr boring game.
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Who cares? Pubs 4 life.
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When does the next season begin, anybody know?
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we should stick it to BW, then maybe when there is more people, switch back to SC