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Author Topic: +1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...  (Read 1646 times)

DumpsterMan

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+1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...
« on: October 11, 2018, 10:48:55 am »
I've seen a lot of variations of how people open after going  +1 nex in team games.  Forge first, 2 gates then forge, 4 gates, etc.

Is there a consensus on which is the best or are there specific factors like MU that determine whether you should get a forge immediately vs getting more gates then a forge later? or is it just personal preference..


Solar

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Re: +1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2018, 11:36:54 am »
its all depend of match up, but going +1 is risky in general.

tO_cReAtiVee

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Re: +1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2018, 12:04:09 pm »
Usually you shoudlnt open +1. Its just stupid and unnecessarily risky...

Depending on matchup and the skill level of your teammates, you can go either safe (forge first) or try to catch up in zealot count (4gates).

but seriously opening +1, is just a troll build (in 2s more so than in 3s, but still).
aka Red.SeeD

DumpsterMan

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Re: +1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2018, 01:06:32 pm »
I definitely prefer a 4 gate opening but I wasn't sure for when you have a situation like PZZ or a Zerg ally in 2's if its ever good to just Nex first and try and play a macro game since the zerg is almost always not going to be doing much unless they 9 pooled till like 6-8 min.

preMier

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Re: +1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2018, 02:20:12 pm »
It depends entirely on the match-up.
In PRvPR you can go for it if you're PP as long as your ally goes for regular 4 gate. But it is risky if the opponent is PT because you lose your initial early leverage over PT. Your leverage instead shifts towards a slightly later stage into the game. But because the early stage is so important in PPvPT, PT will most likely have mid control. However you will have earlier drops out and an economic advantage over your opponents.

In PPvPP you can do it but it is again rather risky. It again requires your ally to go for the standard 4 gate build as your part will have to carry you through the early zealot harass stage.

In PPVPZ or PTvPZ you're free to do it unless the opponent just so happens to CR+LING on you or Block + ling harass on you.
The +1 build in question that I think is best is one of Matt's builds. 8/9 Pylon, +1 nexus asap, +2 gates and +1 pylon, then +3 gates and pylon. This should allow you to catch up on zealot count after a couple minutes.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 02:25:24 pm by preMier »

DumpsterMan

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Re: +1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2018, 02:36:30 pm »
It depends entirely on the match-up.
In PRvPR you can go for it if you're PP as long as your ally goes for regular 4 gate. But it is risky if the opponent is PT because you lose your initial early leverage over PT. Your leverage instead shifts towards a slightly later stage into the game. But because the early stage is so important in PPvPT, PT will most likely have mid control. However you will have earlier drops out and an economic advantage over your opponents.

In PPvPP you can do it but it is again rather risky. It again requires your ally to go for the standard 4 gate build as your part will have to carry you through the early zealot harass stage.

In PPVPZ or PTvPZ you're free to do it unless the opponent just so happens to CR+LING on you or Block + ling harass on you.
The +1 build in question that I think is best is one of Matt's builds. 8/9 Pylon, +1 nexus asap, +2 gates and +1 pylon, then +3 gates and pylon. This should allow you to catch up on zealot count after a couple minutes.

What do you do when you're PZ as the toss with the zerg ally ( I play alot with a guy who picks only Z). Sometimes I also get PZZ in pubs.

preMier

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Re: +1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2018, 03:05:50 pm »
It depends entirely on the match-up.
In PRvPR you can go for it if you're PP as long as your ally goes for regular 4 gate. But it is risky if the opponent is PT because you lose your initial early leverage over PT. Your leverage instead shifts towards a slightly later stage into the game. But because the early stage is so important in PPvPT, PT will most likely have mid control. However you will have earlier drops out and an economic advantage over your opponents.

In PPvPP you can do it but it is again rather risky. It again requires your ally to go for the standard 4 gate build as your part will have to carry you through the early zealot harass stage.

In PPVPZ or PTvPZ you're free to do it unless the opponent just so happens to CR+LING on you or Block + ling harass on you.
The +1 build in question that I think is best is one of Matt's builds. 8/9 Pylon, +1 nexus asap, +2 gates and +1 pylon, then +3 gates and pylon. This should allow you to catch up on zealot count after a couple minutes.

What do you do when you're PZ as the toss with the zerg ally ( I play alot with a guy who picks only Z). Sometimes I also get PZZ in pubs.

It is subject to whether it is 2s or 3s, PRvPR or RRvRR or RZ/PZvRR. There are tooo many options that I can't go into right now, but a very very safe option is to 3 gate forge.

oD)WarlorD

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Re: +1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 04:14:04 pm »
quad nex or no balls

beaTz-

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Re: +1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 05:10:23 pm »
Now a days you never really see a p going +1. Between everybody going cr with pz or cannoning all map with pt or pp. itís to much of a risk factor.

ZeuZ

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Re: +1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2018, 03:06:52 am »
What do you do when you're PZ as the toss with the zerg ally ( I play alot with a guy who picks only Z). Sometimes I also get PZZ in pubs.

Best thing to do in PZ is 4gate in to forge(I would like to 4g +1 in PZ but this would be in certain situations). The goal is to buy the Z as much time by causing some ruckus ... you can send 2 zlots to mess with someoneís probes and throw them off a bit but youíd also have to be able to micro and make sure you survive.. the main thing is to not die on the Zerg. In PZ itís a lot of 1v2ing.. you have to hold as long as you can until the Zerg is able to help you when itís big enough.

Almost every game is different but this is just what I think about a typical PZ:


In PZ there are really only two options for both the Z (to either go hydras or guardians ) and for the P (either drops or mass). There are a couple things that must be considered: who is the opposing team pushing and itís important to note if the opposing team blocks one in and who do they block in (the P or Z) Typically the opposing team will block one or the other then push the one they didnít block. The only time I like a Zerg going mass hydra is when the opposing team is pushing the P and decided to NOT block in the Zerg. The right Zerg could have range and speed and about 50 hydras within 7 mins, that mass could be too much to handle but this is why most teams will counteract that by blocking in the Z. If the Zerg is cannoned and goes straight for air, it could have guardians in time to save the P but not only that, the right Z could be maxed on air by 11 mins with 0-1 ups and overlord speed.. so in essence I like air because of the fact that hydras can result In a big fail if the Z is blocked. There however are certain situations where hydra mass is a good idea but this scenario is when the P&Z choke.

Now if the P is blocked in.. the best decision is to abandon mass and go straight for drops. Getting recalls with reavers or even mass drops while keeping the opposing team broke on minerals is the ultimate goal for the P. Then eventually mid game the P can slowly break out if heís able to keep the other team broke and once the P breaks itís likely the P&Z take control of the map and win it. So yeah the P in my opinion should focus on drops if theyíre blocked in, but if the Zerg is blocked in and the P is getting pushed, the P should go mass zlots with speed while massing cannons ; the P would be unable to hold 1v2 if they try going drops and mass so the best thing to do is just not make drops until your base is secure and you have the minerals to get drops going. Adding some temp storms with the fast zlots vs T marine/tanks would be ideal. Honestly there are so many scenarios so if you have any more questions just ask along..

As far as +1 in PZ i used to do a risky strat where I would +1 in PZ itís risky but it worked out for me pretty well.. I did cost my teammates sometimes by dying though lol so yeah itís risky and should rarely be done.

Again every game has its variables but in PZ I would say the best thing for the P to do is 4g and hold 1v2 for as long as possible hopefully by then the Z is strong mid game and can help. Also itís important  for the P to not fall too behind on adding another nexus thatís what I meant by 4g +1, Iíd try getting that extra nexus before the other P(s) in order to gain even a slither of advantage but youíd have to be able hold like I said the main goal for the P is to not die on the Z.

Hope this helps you and others💪 Thereís still a lot more to say but Iíve wrote a ton already lol


Few more tips for P in PZ:

P must scout very wisely and continuously have vision of:

PZvPP- when both Pís double or triple, when they make gas, when they make their core, if they stayed off 4-5 gates , or if they jumped to 6-8 gates, if they make their robotics or if they go for goon range must also be called out

PZvPT When the T makes their factory.... this is the biggest information in PZvPT. If the T ends up going 4 racks, this means the opposing team will likely attack with mass zlots and marines so that means D up. This means their tank will be really late so you have an advantage. Just like in PZvPP, in PZvPT itís still important to know if the P is going goons or drops, like I said the P must have vision of whether the core is upgrading goon range or if robos are being made. Typically good players will immediately put marines at Pís choke so itís hard to scout.. at which point it is up to the Zerg to try to get a scout


P should send their first two zlots to the Z if the opposition are both going at the Z- this should be seen by a Zerg Ovie that should be in mid seeing units going around. Zerg should keep an ovie outside of at least one opponents base so they can always see their units coming out and where they go.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 03:16:01 am by ZeuZ »

DumpsterMan

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Re: +1 Nex as toss in 2's/3's...
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2018, 04:00:59 pm »
What do you do when you're PZ as the toss with the zerg ally ( I play alot with a guy who picks only Z). Sometimes I also get PZZ in pubs.

Best thing to do in PZ is 4gate in to forge(I would like to 4g +1 in PZ but this would be in certain situations). The goal is to buy the Z as much time by causing some ruckus ... you can send 2 zlots to mess with someoneís probes and throw them off a bit but youíd also have to be able to micro and make sure you survive.. the main thing is to not die on the Zerg. In PZ itís a lot of 1v2ing.. you have to hold as long as you can until the Zerg is able to help you when itís big enough.

Almost every game is different but this is just what I think about a typical PZ:


In PZ there are really only two options for both the Z (to either go hydras or guardians ) and for the P (either drops or mass). There are a couple things that must be considered: who is the opposing team pushing and itís important to note if the opposing team blocks one in and who do they block in (the P or Z) Typically the opposing team will block one or the other then push the one they didnít block. The only time I like a Zerg going mass hydra is when the opposing team is pushing the P and decided to NOT block in the Zerg. The right Zerg could have range and speed and about 50 hydras within 7 mins, that mass could be too much to handle but this is why most teams will counteract that by blocking in the Z. If the Zerg is cannoned and goes straight for air, it could have guardians in time to save the P but not only that, the right Z could be maxed on air by 11 mins with 0-1 ups and overlord speed.. so in essence I like air because of the fact that hydras can result In a big fail if the Z is blocked. There however are certain situations where hydra mass is a good idea but this scenario is when the P&Z choke.

Now if the P is blocked in.. the best decision is to abandon mass and go straight for drops. Getting recalls with reavers or even mass drops while keeping the opposing team broke on minerals is the ultimate goal for the P. Then eventually mid game the P can slowly break out if heís able to keep the other team broke and once the P breaks itís likely the P&Z take control of the map and win it. So yeah the P in my opinion should focus on drops if theyíre blocked in, but if the Zerg is blocked in and the P is getting pushed, the P should go mass zlots with speed while massing cannons ; the P would be unable to hold 1v2 if they try going drops and mass so the best thing to do is just not make drops until your base is secure and you have the minerals to get drops going. Adding some temp storms with the fast zlots vs T marine/tanks would be ideal. Honestly there are so many scenarios so if you have any more questions just ask along..

As far as +1 in PZ i used to do a risky strat where I would +1 in PZ itís risky but it worked out for me pretty well.. I did cost my teammates sometimes by dying though lol so yeah itís risky and should rarely be done.

Again every game has its variables but in PZ I would say the best thing for the P to do is 4g and hold 1v2 for as long as possible hopefully by then the Z is strong mid game and can help. Also itís important  for the P to not fall too behind on adding another nexus thatís what I meant by 4g +1, Iíd try getting that extra nexus before the other P(s) in order to gain even a slither of advantage but youíd have to be able hold like I said the main goal for the P is to not die on the Z.

Hope this helps you and others💪 Thereís still a lot more to say but Iíve wrote a ton already lol


Few more tips for P in PZ:

P must scout very wisely and continuously have vision of:

PZvPP- when both Pís double or triple, when they make gas, when they make their core, if they stayed off 4-5 gates , or if they jumped to 6-8 gates, if they make their robotics or if they go for goon range must also be called out

PZvPT When the T makes their factory.... this is the biggest information in PZvPT. If the T ends up going 4 racks, this means the opposing team will likely attack with mass zlots and marines so that means D up. This means their tank will be really late so you have an advantage. Just like in PZvPP, in PZvPT itís still important to know if the P is going goons or drops, like I said the P must have vision of whether the core is upgrading goon range or if robos are being made. Typically good players will immediately put marines at Pís choke so itís hard to scout.. at which point it is up to the Zerg to try to get a scout


P should send their first two zlots to the Z if the opposition are both going at the Z- this should be seen by a Zerg Ovie that should be in mid seeing units going around. Zerg should keep an ovie outside of at least one opponents base so they can always see their units coming out and where they go.

Awesome. Thanks for the detailed response. I may just PM you any future questions hah.

 

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